Curse

random.name · Nov 24, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

I just cant make my mind up about heroes. On the one hand, they rock. Dont have to worry about the PUG from hell. On the other hand, if I am going to play with AI all the time why am I playing GW? I might as well play Oblivion then...

What is your thoughts on the matter?

ender6 · Nov 25, 2006, 01:07 AM // 01:07

How about I find the middle ground answer for you:

You always have the option to PUG a mission/quest. With the introduction of Heros Anet has eliminated some of the frustration that experienced/good players face when joing a pug. There are plenty of missions that you encounter where a bad PUG just can't get it right--might take you half a dozen tries with a PUG team to complete it--or it might take you 2+ hrs with henchies being patient to complete the mission. Now that you can design the build for 4 of the henchies (aka heros) all excuses are out the window. If you can't find a good PUG, build your own team and do the mission.

So to answer your question, yes Hero's are a damn good appendege to an already stellar game. Not necessary, but I for one am quite greatful for them.

badfish34668 · Nov 25, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

heros mean i never will have to play with any real people ever again.

no real people = no constant whining, stalling to enter missions, forgetting skills, n00bs, error 7s, etc.

call me anti-social, but im so tired of people, i probably would have stopped playing gw, if it had not been for heros.

aohige · Nov 25, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

In a way, it's become easier to play with some people.
Now even if there's only 3 or 4 friends around that want to play together, we don't have to look for PUG members to fill up the space, or settle for henchmen.

Even a two-human team can make up a perfect team with 2 human, 6 heroes.

Before NF, I only expected slightly celebrated henchmen.
After experiencing heroes and experimenting with them, I learned there's hell of a diffrence between henchies and heroes. Well, to be specific, I learned just HOW pathetic the henchmen really were

Antheus · Nov 25, 2006, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Heroes mean I play almost exclusively with real people now.

No heroes = no dunkoro tanking, no zhed agroing half the map, no ignoring skills, no getting stuck on terrain

Call me practical, but I'm so tired of watching AI do the same stupid mistake every single time, I probably would have stopped playing gw, if I didn't have the option to group.

* And yes, I'm serious. They are just dressed up henchies, still more noobish that even the worst players - and they'll never ever learn from mistakes. But then again, I'm very discriminate when making groups, so I never join any bad ones. And that's after going through Elone on 4th character, rarely failing in first try, even for masters. But to each their own.

Rok · Nov 25, 2006, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Nothing bad about it. They are far superior to henchmen. Don't have to LFG ever again, but have the option of playing with friends when they are online.

Paperfly · Nov 25, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Bad.

They've withdrawn too many intermediate players from the PuG pool entirely. This reduces the average skill level of PuG players, which in turn forces more group discrimination - that is, people demand 'perfect' group composition because they're so terrified they're going to lose.

...And people playing with "The Fear" (tm) are a lot more uptight, making PuG play a lot less enjoyable. Oh, and it makes the group assembly stage more stressful, which again - not fun. This in turn sends more players off into hero-only land as soon as they're skilled enough to do so, and the downward spiral continues.

(And advanced-but-sociable players are forced away simply because, while they could guarantee a win with a hero team, their chances of success are significantly reduced in a low-skilled PuG!)

Secondary reason: Nightfall has been balanced with hero groups in mind, and actively discourages you from taking in humans in every way it can*. This is a bad thing, and is another reason why all the intermediate players have gone hero-only (I don't buy the "idiot newbs vs good players who can't stand PuGs" dichotomy).

*Mandatory heroes in most missions, aggro-bubble management being the largest source of difficulty, etc. In fact, the overall high difficulty of the last third of the game is directly attributable to heroes (since henching them sans heroes would be well beyond all but the top 2% of players' capabilities).

Tarus From Taros · Nov 25, 2006, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Heroes mean I play almost exclusively with real people now.

No heroes = no dunkoro tanking, no zhed agroing half the map, no ignoring skills, no getting stuck on terrain

Call me practical, but I'm so tired of watching AI do the same stupid mistake every single time, I probably would have stopped playing gw, if I didn't have the option to group.

* And yes, I'm serious. They are just dressed up henchies, still more noobish that even the worst players - and they'll never ever learn from mistakes. But then again, I'm very discriminate when making groups, so I never join any bad ones. And that's after going through Elone on 4th character, rarely failing in first try, even for masters. But to each their own.

Hero's are only as good as you control them to be. If you are having a problem with Hero's making a mistake or believe they are not as strong as humans then it seems the problem is you and not the hero's. You supply the Skills, weapons, runes, and insignias. You select the direction they move and what they attack. Sure they are coded to function a certain way in particular instances but the majority of the faults in Hero's are those who control them. I can say from my personal experience that overall they perform at a level most players do not.

I'd suggest giving them a second chance. Try out different builds. With enough experience you might just change your mind.

LordDeArnise · Nov 25, 2006, 03:55 AM // 03:55

I find them to be more useful and a convenience when doing quests and missions. This is especially true if you're playing a class that rarely gets into groups with real players, and you only have to worry about placing them in certain spots rather than watching some crazy melee aggro more mobs than you can handle.

Dunkoro and Tahlkora aren't great substitutes for a good player-controlled monk, but Norgu, Jin, and Margrid can certainly disrupt enemy mobs quicker than what most players, including myself, can manage. Master of Whispers & Olias aren't stellar compared to player-controlled Necros, but are useful when there isn't a player available to use his/her necro.

As for whether they have affected PUG's, they seem to have affected it in some way. Some seem to have small gameplay capabilities, or seek nothing less than perfection, or just flat-out wants an all-player group when a mission or quest doesn't require a hero. Heroes aren't great substitues in Realm of Torment area, but at least they can fill in when a grp is just about rdy and just need those elusive monks.

Antheus · Nov 25, 2006, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarus From Taros

Hero's are only as good as you control them to be. If you are having a problem with Hero's making a mistake or believe they are not as strong as humans then it seems the problem is you and not the hero's. You supply the Skills, weapons, runes, and insignias. You select the direction they move and what they attack. Sure they are coded to function a certain way in particular instances but the majority of the faults in Hero's are those who control them. I can say from my personal experience that overall they perform at a level most players do not.

I'd suggest giving them a second chance. Try out different builds. With enough experience you might just change your mind.

Sorry, no AI will ever replace humans. If you honestly believe that, then I don't want to know the groups you've been in, or why you joined them in the first place.

Hero will never know that it should prot spirit the puller, unless enchant will get shattered. Interrupter will never learn to anticipate the next cast of a particular spell. MM will not know how to position himself for optimal minion spread. A nuker will not time his 3 and 5 second casts for best damage.

Like I said, I know how to form and run groups. I use heroes if I must. But considering them superior to humans is a huge overstatement.

You see, my advice back would be: Look at the group you join/form. Make a balanced build, understand different player experience levels, adapt to that. Talk to players a bit to learn how experienced they are. Observe them to see which mistakes they make, try not to let your own mistakes harm them. Adept the pace to the skill of others. When playing with other people, you do not have 100% control over every single of their actions. This in particular seems to be the greatest boon with regard to why some play only with heroes. Teamplay is about being part of team, not the ultimate dictator over every single detail.

I consider heroes good, since they removed those that didn't want to group in the first place from PUG pool. Someone, who didn't want to play with players for whichever reasons will not make a good team player. From my perspective, heroes have greatly improved PUG quality.

As for heroes - they are and will remain tools for me. Use them when needed, and that's it. But for serious quality gameplay, humans.

aohige · Nov 25, 2006, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

No heroes = no dunkoro tanking, no zhed agroing half the map, no ignoring skills, no getting stuck on terrain

Using "Guard" instead of "Fight", micromanaging flags, do wonders.
You should play some Warcraft III or other RTS and you'll find controlling heroes to be MUCH easier than before.
Or.... if it's too tedious for you, you could play completely with human players, like you suggested. Thankfully, GW gives us that option

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Sorry, no AI will ever replace humans. If you honestly believe that, then I don't want to know the groups you've been in, or why you joined them in the first place.

Uh, Antheus, chill out. Tarus NEVER said AI will replace humans.
Read carefully before you snap back.

SnipiousMax · Nov 25, 2006, 05:22 AM // 05:22

*Closed*

This was discussed before (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hp?t=10073123).